PB.com discussion forum darkside of change/religion thread

[F.T. Phantom]

Ok. Name some and let's see if we can find a dark side to the change.

[stealthyeliminator]

Becoming a Christian.

Burn.

[F.T. Phantom]

I have known many who considered it a painful experience. Giving up partying and such has made them mean and bitter people. They are christian yes, good people no. The conversion may well have been a waste and a torture for them in life. The hatred they feel for having to be good will most likely make it a useless pursuit in the end.

[stealthyeliminator]

I have known many who considered it a painful experience. Giving up partying and such has made them mean and bitter people. They are christian yes, good people no. The conversion may well have been a waste and a torture for them in life. The hatred they feel for having to be good will most likely make it a useless pursuit in the end.
[/b]
No disrespect intended, but that simply can't be the case.

I hate to doubt, but if they had a true conversion experience then they would not be that way.

Giving up partying? What, does the definition of joy revolve around parties? And what's so bad about parties anyway? I've been to plenty of parties. Give me a break.

I think someone has an intirely wrong idea about Christianity.

[Doorman]

Drawback to being Christian.....

If the Jews are right then Christians won't go to Heaven. If the Buddhists are right then Christians won't be reborn.

Something negative can be found in anything positive. Just like there is absolutely no such thing as a selfless good act.

[me the paintball player]

Well the Jews are Jews.

I don not go by their faith, I believe in my faith and my faith alone and if I belive in and love God he will help and grant me everlasting life...

[Doorman]

Well the Jews are Jews.

I don not go by their faith, I believe in my faith and my faith alone and if I belive in and love God he will help and grant me everlasting life...
[/b]
The arrogance, Cardinal pride, closed mindedness, and conceit in the above statement astounds me.

This is the most common form of prejudice around, religious elitism. This is perhaps the greatest of all negatives to Christianity and all Christians are guilty of it. Many other religions are guilty of the same, but this seems to be the lifeblood of Christianity.

Double check the 7 deadly sins, specifically Pride, before condemning another person out of turn and placing yourself as more important than they for your belief. Humility is the opposing Cardinal virtue that should be embraced....

But we are WAY off track of the original topic, so if anyone wants to take the above few posts to another thread, please feel free.

[Spyder Java]

The arrogance, Cardinal pride, closed mindedness, and conceit in the above statement astounds me.

This is the most common form of prejudice around, religious elitism. This is perhaps the greatest of all negatives to Christianity and all Christians are guilty of it. Many other religions are guilty of the same, but this seems to be the lifeblood of Christianity.

Double check the 7 deadly sins, specifically Pride, before condemning another person out of turn and placing yourself as more important than they for your belief. Humility is the opposing Cardinal virtue that should be embraced....

But we are WAY off track of the original topic, so if anyone wants to take the above few posts to another thread, please feel free.[/b]

I asume you are saying that Jews are Jews is the problem with his statement. As I too am a Christian and I do not put myself above others. You say all Christians are guilty of being prejudice, I say all of man is prejudice no matter what religion they are. To say that because I am a christian I must be close minded is inane and only goes to show that you lack knowledge of belief systems. I myself do not happen to believe everything that the major denominations of Christianity believe. I believe that if you believe in your god then you will go to your "heaven" or "Nirvana" or whatever you feel is your destination (including reincarnation and hell/hades/tartarus/etc). According to the Catholic church I am going to hell because I am not a Catholic. As according to the new pope. There is no reason why he (me the paintball player) should have to believe what everyone else believes. We are free to choose our own beliefs. Meaning that he may be a "christain" but he may not believe that he is better than anyone else like you accuse all christains of being. I let people practice whatever religion they want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Why can't we all be right when it comes to religion? Catholics can have their god and the saints, I can have just god, everyone can have their gods and just be happy. Worse case scenerio your wrong and you go to the bad place of whatever religion was right (or if the athiest was right you just simply stop being anymore. Problem solved). I do not take lightly the fact that you say that I am guilty of something you or anyone for that matter has ever seen me commit or have any proof of it. How can you say we are guilty of something without evidence of each individual. That is like trying to say every member of the US is guilty of killing an innocent person because one wackjob went out and killed someone. You cannot judge a single person based on what is evident as a whole. Yes Christianity can seemed close minded but all religions are. Yet you choose to say that we rely so heavily on it. Yes there have been some Christains that think they are above others, but not all of us just openly accept everything that the guy behind the podium says and believe he is right in all ways and anyone who says otherwise is wrong and going to hell (or is a heratic). This isnt the middle ages anymore, people have changed. the fact that you believe that all christains can be guilty of a something because they are christains is being exactly what you are saying they are. You are then putting yourself above everyone else and judge us. You have no right. Point that finger at yourself before you point it at others. My god is my jusge, as I hope your god judges you just as harshly as you have and based on the actions of what others in your religion did (athiest need not worry as the world for you will just simply end when death comes). I believe what I want to believe he (me the paintball player) can do the same as everyone can. Every religion says that the others are wrong. Every religion even athiests put themselves above others. Who cares? Live life, die, and move on (or if your the Athiest death is the end).

As far as Pride goes, everyone has comitted it. When you judge others you are comitting the act of pride as you cannot judge by being on the same level as everyone else. You must be better than the person or thing you are trying to judge. You give your pride a boost and say you are better so that you can look down on us and judge but yet you have no ground to stand on because you my friend are just like us. With my judging I have deemed everyone human and that not a single one of us is fit to judge another. It isn't right to place one human in higher regaurds than another. That is why in some ways I hat the legal system and especially court rooms. What makes him so special that he can judge me. What does he do to make him better so that he can look down on me and say you are guilty. When he (or she I use he as a reference to any human) is just as human as I am. Though I understand the need for the legal system, I do not like it. But its the best one I have yet to see. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... Famous and over used line, but it still holds relevant. Its like the pot calling the keddle black. You cannot judge someone when you are just as guilty of the same thing as they are.

[Doorman]

Such heat SJ :)

I believe that all Christians are guilty of religious conceit and elitism because they are, however I should amend it to say that the devout are elitists. This isn't a generalization but based in the teachings of Christianity itself, that only by accepting Christ will you be admitted to Heaven. One can not be a true Christian and believe that other religions will be allowed into Heaven. It's just the way it is.

Not all others out there are elitists, Wicca and Buddhism are two that jump to mind immediately. The Wiccan religion is the penultimate in acceptance of others, especially those with other beliefs. Buddhism is the greatest example of the Cardinal virtues that can be found on the planet. Neither of these religions teach that one must believe as they do to be accepted or allowed to flourish in an afterlife whatever it may be. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all teach that one must convert (accept their teachings alone) to be accepted into the afterlife, though Judaism doesn't believe in a Heaven perse but that's a different discussion completely. If a person believes that others outside of their religion can be accepted into their afterlife then they are not true and devout Christians, Islamic, Jews, etc.

Not once have I said that his (me the paintball player) beliefs were wrong. They show the prejudice that is taught and embraced by a vast majority of religions out there (as I also mentioned) and this is what I pointed out. Nor did I state that my views were superior to his (me the paintball player), only that he needs to not judge another out of turn (yes, the Jew comment).

But look at what has just happened here.... one person (me) has made a comment of less than 100 words which invoked such a passionate response. Wars are fought, and still fought to this day, in the name of Christ/God/Allah/etc. As F.T. pointed out, a negative can be found in anything positive.

Negative of gun ownership, people will get killed with guns.
Negative of knife ownership, people will get killed with knives.
Negative of baseball bat ownership, people will get killed with baseball bats.
Negative of more than one person on the earth at a time, one person will inevitably harm the other over a disagreement (belief one should live at the expense of the other).
Negative of the Universe.... Gene Roddenberry screwing up first alien contact for everyone :D


BTW, in case anyone was wondering.... I'm a religious mutt. If one were to classify me I would fit in as an agnostic. My grandmother and her family were Jews. My grandfather was Catholic but others in his family were Vodun (Louisiana bayou folk). My mother was Catholic. My father was atheist. His family was Mormon. My two step sisters are Jehovah Witness'. My sister is Episcopalian. I was baptized in a Baptist church. My wife is Methodist. My sisters husband is Catholic (he's a naturalized Mexican). One of my very close cousins is a practicing Wiccan. And a long time friend is Zen Buddhist. I have a lot of resources to draw on which is why I can't subscribe to any organized religion or classify my own beliefs.

[F.T. Phantom]

Man, I had a post that never made it on board. Must have forgot to hit add reply.

To stealthy; the scene I descibed is a everyday event for me to watch. Give it a few years and you may understand what I am talking about. They did get saved for the wrong reasons. There alot more issues involved than we realy need to get into.

Doormans example is a better dark side example.

me the pbplayer demonstrated another dark point of being saved. One is right and the other is damned to hell. I never had understood that from someone who claims there is only one God. If there is only one, we are all worshipping the same one. Think about it. More blood has been shed over religionous technicallities then any other reason. Aint that great.

Live and let let live people. Stay true to what you believe. Let's get the thread back on track as the Doorman suggested.

[Spyder Java]

See, I myself am a Christian. While not the mainstream "devout." I believe there is one God, same as most Christians. But I believe that whatever religion you believe is correct for you and that you will end up in your appropriate place. But still Jews believe what Jews believe, catholics believe what catholics believe and I believe what I believe. I think I just had a different interpretation of what me the paintball player was saying. Not that because they are Jews (or what have you) that they were going to hell, just that he didn't care what they believed; he just knew what he believed in and for that to be true for him. It seemed to me that you were attacking him for believing in God as a Christian does. It isn't prejudice in which he said it, he was saying it in acceptance of other peoples beliefs and rights to practice their individual religion. Or at least that is how it sounded to me. By saying that he is being prejudice for believing in what his God is saying is true is like saying anyone following any religion is wrong for it, because of what they teach. Buddhist try to enlighten and say that you need to do certain things to achieve Nirvana. Well is it not prejudice against those who do not do those things? Everything is prejudice... you just have to look at it differently. Every religion has some sort of exclusionary part to it thus making it prejudice. While I am Christian I feel that everyone is right with their choice in that matter. Like that one movie. I can't remember the name but they were a bunch of Vikings and they were sailing to the ends of the Earth and thier boat fell off the edge of the world into Valhalla. But they had a guy who wasn't a Viking on board i think he was Jewish (this movie was sort of a comedy if I remember right). The jewish guy couldn't see Valhalla or the people in it. He saw something the others couldn't because that is what he believed. Everyone was trapped behind a door and the jewish guy walked right through it, they asked him how he did it and he replied "what door?" The reason why the Earth was flat was because everyone believed it, the reason why the Jewish guy was able to walk through the door was because he didn't believe there was a door, just that they had gone off the end of the Earth. I guess I am just seeing things at a large scale and that in the end either all of us are right (which is what I truly think is real) or that none of us are.

The two things you never talk about if you want to keep/make friends:
1) Religion
2) Politics

[stealthyeliminator]

Whoa whoa whoa!

I didn't really expect to see many people understand Christianity very much, but you of all people doorman. It's really a shame.

Christianity. Think about that name. A goal of ALL Christians is to be more like Christ, again, hense the name. Now, lets look at a few things Christ did.

First of all, Christ was elite. He was part of the Trinity of God, hello, he was like, the top dog. Ok, so what did he do? He can to the Earth in the form of a human to undergo the same temptations we see every day, to be brutily treated, to be hated, to be tourchered, and to die. Do you see ANY pride in that? All I see is more humility than any human has ever shown. THAT, is what ALL Christians strive to be more like. An ultimate example of humility. So for you to somehow suggest that Christianity in any way involves some sort of, "I'm going to heaven and your not," in your face pride, or any other sort of pride, is absolutely rediculous.

Second of all, it would also be rediculous to say that I, or any other Christian, is being prideful over the fact that I'm going to heaven and others aren't. This is not to say that no Christian is prideful, we will all still sin, but it is not part of Christianity, and it is wrong. So to associate it with the Faith itself is rediculous.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It's like the truth is the opposite of what you said. Elitism is the lifeblood of Christianity? Instead of jumping into a rebuttal on this one(I'm out of time), I'll simply say, back it up.

[F.T. Phantom]

OK. Show me where Jesus ids himself in the trinity. Jesus must be quoted for it to count.

[hpiracing]

It's all about Shamanism, anything else bores me to death and I think what in the are? People waste there time on this rubish?

[maldon007]

No disrespect intended, but that simply can't be the case.

I hate to doubt, but if they had a true conversion experience then they would not be that way.

Giving up partying? What, does the definition of joy revolve around parties? And what's so bad about parties anyway? I've been to plenty of parties. Give me a break.

I think someone has an intirely wrong idea about Christianity.
[/b]


I am not a christian... by any means (agnostic?), but I fully agree.
I am a grown man, I can go get ####faced any time I like... have a few friends that do. But its just not my thing... kinda booring I may myself sloshed once a decade, or so... But damn, if that is a major aspect of your life??... That will just kill you to give up??? ...you may indeed need some religion :lol:

I cant really think of anything that "main streem" christianity asks you to give up... that you probably shouldnt give up, just for the sake of comon sense!

Damn, I cant go get with hookers, cause Iz a church boy now :(
####, I cant go get me some meth & burn it down, onacounta I gots religion :(
Crap, I cant beats my wife & momma no mo cause I gots the jesus :angry:

...Religion pretty much wants you to give up stupid self destructive & sadistic behavior... oh no! :o

[me the paintball player]

The arrogance, Cardinal pride, closed mindedness, and conceit in the above statement astounds me.

This is the most common form of prejudice around, religious elitism. This is perhaps the greatest of all negatives to Christianity and all Christians are guilty of it. Many other religions are guilty of the same, but this seems to be the lifeblood of Christianity.

Double check the 7 deadly sins, specifically Pride, before condemning another person out of turn and placing yourself as more important than they for your belief. Humility is the opposing Cardinal virtue that should be embraced....

But we are WAY off track of the original topic, so if anyone wants to take the above few posts to another thread, please feel free.
[/b]
Pride? Pride? Because I read the bible and believe in what I believe in not what a guy in a black suit can "teach" me? You are saying that I think my faith is better than theirs? No...just no. I said that I don't go by their faith by choice. Not because I think I'm supierior. Because I don't have a set branch in Christianity. The Bible may be interepted differently in my mind rather than stealthy's or Edward Statatkowski.

[Doorman]

Stealthy, I do understand Christianity and have not misunderstood the teachings. Sorry to say. However, you misunderstood the use of the word Pride. It wasn't being proud of going to Heaven and others not, it is partially about believing that Christianity is the only path to Heaven and all others are condemned.

There is proof around you every day regarding this.... faiths sending their followers out on missions of conversion, door knockers wanting you to accept their faith, etc. It's all under the guise of fellowship, forgiveness, love, etc but the underlying fact behind it all is that these people are better than others because their faith and acceptance of Christ will allow them into Heaven where others will not be allowed. This is the very essence of prejudice. This isn't discrimination based on physical traits that anyone can see, but on belief. To say that one persons beliefs are better than another persons is the epitome of Pride. And to be a faithful or devout Christian you must believe that your belief and acceptance of Christ places you above others who don't believe the same as you do by granting you access to Heaven. If not then you can not truly believe in Christ as the son of God. For you must believe in Christ as the son of God and His teachings to be allowed into Heaven according to Christian religion. To believe something else is to put another before Christ and putting another before Christ will not get you into Heaven. If even the most heretical are allowed into Heaven (an accept all policy which would not discriminate against anyone) then where does that leave Christianity? Thus it is the lifeblood and the core unspoken rule of almost every religion on Earth. Christianity just happens to be very outspoken about their attempts to convert the non believer.

Christ accepted all people including; homosexuals, whores, heathens, Jews, etc without attempting to convert or condemn anyone. His love and His acceptance were enough to lend power to His words on the teachings of God. This power helped others see the truth of His words and that is the basis of Christianity but the forgiveness and acceptance have been lost somewhere along the lines. Every Christian religion out there will segregate at least one group who will never know the joy of joining Christ in Heaven. After all, Heaven is the ultimate goal of all Christian religions, not to become more Christ-like.

BTW, thanks for the name change FT, it fits far more than the PB logo title LOL

[stealthyeliminator]

edit: I didn't read the above post before posting the following.

After finishing reading the posts that lead up to my most recent post, I realize that it may not be completely relavent or.. I guess I should say, correct, in a way.

But at any rate..

OK. Show me where Jesus ids himself in the trinity. Jesus must be quoted for it to count.[/b]
I'm not sure that he does, specifically. I believe(I haven't asked anyone about this or done any research, this is simply what I scrounged up from the back of my memory and filled in the blanks with imagination) that the title "The Trinity" is not a title that Jesus or God gave us, but it's a title that we(man) have come up with to give a name for the relationship between the Father(God), the Son(Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.

Because of this, like I said, I don't believe that there is a place in the Bible that quotes Jesus saying that he is part of the Trinity(using that specific word). If you would like me to research it more and come up with some studies and passages that support the "idea of" the Trinity, and help explain what it is, then I'll be glad to do so.

edit again:
you must believe that your belief and acceptance of Christ places you above others[/b] I would beg to differ, but perhaps we should get some definitions in here for "places you above," "greater than," etc.

After all, Heaven is the ultimate goal of all Christian religions[/b]I'll have to disagree here... More on this later, perhaps.

Also. Witnessing(knocking on doors, etc.) is not being prideful, and I don't believe I'm better than anyone because I'm a Christian. I really don't understand what your trying to say here.
It's all under the guise of fellowship, forgiveness, love, etc but the underlying fact behind it all is that these people are better than others because their faith and acceptance of Christ will allow them into Heaven where others will not be allowed.[/b]
Under the guise of? Well, I don't know exactly what guise means, but from the context I'm going to assume it means something similar to disguise. I don't quite get what your saying here... Are you trying to imply that somehow I am trying to brag by witnessing to someone? Again, I don't believe I am any better then anyone else. I'm still a sinner, I'm still a human. "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." I'm in the same boat as you, my neighbor, and everyone else. I'm a sinner, I've failed. The only reason that I can get into heaven is because of Jesus. How do statements like those come across as me somehow implying that I'm better then anyone else?

[Doorman]

I am not a christian... by any means (agnostic?), but I fully agree.
I am a grown man, I can go get ####faced any time I like... have a few friends that do. But its just not my thing... kinda booring I may myself sloshed once a decade, or so... But damn, if that is a major aspect of your life??... That will just kill you to give up??? ...you may indeed need some religion :lol:

I cant really think of anything that "main streem" christianity asks you to give up... that you probably shouldnt give up, just for the sake of comon sense!

Damn, I cant go get with hookers, cause Iz a church boy now :(
####, I cant go get me some meth & burn it down, onacounta I gots religion :(
Crap, I cant beats my wife & momma no mo cause I gots the jesus :angry:

...Religion pretty much wants you to give up stupid self destructive & sadistic behavior... oh no! :o
[/b]
Some Christian religions condemn me for having tattoo's.
Some Christian religions condemn me for admiring other women even though I'm happily married (for 15 years + now).
Almost all Christian religions condemn homosexuality even though it's a hardwired nature response in some individuals. Some animals in the wild perform homosexual acts (giraffe, monkeys, dolphins, etc) and some are strictly heterosexual, even among those animals that perform homosexual acts. So this discounts the whole "It's a personal choice" thing. And yes, drug use among homosexuals, suicide, etc. all stem from social issues and not internal battles of Godliness as is suggested by some religious groups.
Some Christian religions condemn drinking of alcohol of any kind and others accept moderate use.
The list goes on. So I beg to differ that it wants you to give up stupid self destructive and sadistic behavior as a defense against the negativity that is also inherent.



edit again:
I would beg to differ, but perhaps we should get some definitions in here for "places you above," "greater than," etc. [/b]
It means just that. Your belief places you in a superior position for an afterlife than others that don't believe the same as you.


Also. Witnessing(knocking on doors, etc.) is not being prideful, and I don't believe I'm better than anyone because I'm a Christian. I really don't understand what your trying to say here. [/b]
Pride. Witnessing is being prideful. To believe that another needs to be "saved" or converted is to believe they are somehow inferior to you based upon belief.


Under the guise of? Well, I don't know exactly what guise means, but from the context I'm going to assume it means something similar to disguise. I don't quite get what your saying here... Are you trying to imply that somehow I am trying to brag by witnessing to someone? Again, I don't believe I am any better then anyone else. I'm still a sinner, I'm still a human. "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." I'm in the same boat as you, my neighbor, and everyone else. I'm a sinner, I've failed. The only reason that I can get into heaven is because of Jesus. How do statements like those come across as me somehow implying that I'm better then anyone else?
[/b]
Because of the statement just prior to my emphasis applied italics. The only reason you can get into Heaven is because of Jesus. I can not because I do not believe the same as you. My soul will be condemned to damnation because I do not believe as you or other Christians according to your belief. Would you say that Heaven is more acceptable than damnation? It is what you want for your afterlife is it not? If you believe it is a more acceptable position than damnation then you believe it is superior to damnation in one way or another. This is the very definition of discrimination. By action and belief you will go to Heaven and I will be damned in your mind. This places you in a position of afterlife superiority that you have consciously chosen for yourself.

*note* You, your, yourself applies not as a direct implication of specific person but of Christian belief in general.

[stealthyeliminator]

Meh.
Negativities(sp) may stem from becoming a Christian, but becoming a Christian in itself, and acts that are inherent to(correct phrasing?) becoming a Christian are not negative.

For example. I become a Christian, and I decide to stop drinking heavily. This is not a negative.

On the other had, I become a Christian, again, not a negative, but because of the fact that I became a Christian a Muslim extremist murders me and my family. That is a negative that was related to me becoming a Christian, but it was not becoming a Christian that was negative. At any rate... I'm probably going to be through with this thread for a while... If I can pull away from it.

[Spyder Java]

Yes some forms of Christianity does do this. But to say that all forms of Christianity to is discriminatory. While Yes for me you have to believe in Christ to get into my "heaven" you do not to get into yours. Every religion offers something better to those who follow it. They are all discriminate. They say you must do this or that to get a better place. The act of trying to convert someone isn't one of pride. They believe you need saving. Example: You see a man fall off the ship your on. Do you throw him a raft to climb on to save his life. Thinking that death is worse than living the rest of your life. Your not doing it to be a hero, you are doing it to save someone from a fate you believe is going to happen. It could turn out the man didn't need saving. Or you just saved the man from death. The man always has the choice to grab onto the raft and pull himself up, or stay in the water and drown (or possibly swim to shore and save himself in his own way). I think you are mistaking an attempt to save someone for pride. Even if what you say is true and it is pride the person always has the ability to say no, thus taking his pride or belief that he doesn't need saving is better than what they have to offer. So to try and convert someone is an act of pride and refusing conversion is one apparently to (using the same logic as you have found in the pride of the attempt to convert people). My God has taught me to accept everyone for how they are and to let them believe what they want to believe. If someone wants to know what I believe I shall gladly tell them. Though I don't feel anyone needs "saving," they have all been given the tools and can decide which they want to use. It doesn't matter if it is the tools of "Christ" or "Buddha" or whoever. That is there decision. Yes I am still a Christian, even if I don't feel the need to go around converting people. We should only provide the tools for salvation our way, let the individual decide what they want to do, and to whose tools they use. That is also the right given to those who live in this country decide what you want to believe in.

[F.T. Phantom]

I'm not sure that he does, specifically. I believe(I haven't asked anyone about this or done any research, this is simply what I scrounged up from the back of my memory and filled in the blanks with imagination) that the title "The Trinity" is not a title that Jesus or God gave us, but it's a title that we(man) have come up with to give a name for the relationship between the Father(God), the Son(Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.

Because of this, like I said, I don't believe that there is a place in the Bible that quotes Jesus saying that he is part of the Trinity(using that specific word). If you would like me to research it more and come up with some studies and passages that support the "idea of" the Trinity, and help explain what it is, then I'll be glad to do so.
[/b]


Please do. It should be a interesting journey.

Then, look for the origin of the Trinity concept in Christianity.

[omegaduckey]

the origin of the trinity consept in christianity is

that God (the father) send Jesus (his son) to die on the cross for our sins, in three days he rose again (easter) he stayed around for a few more days and then rose back to heaven untill he comes again (the rapture) The Holy Spirit (excuse my spelling, im very tired) then came and is "the little voice who tells you whats wrong, conscience"



Father

Son

Holy Spirit

3 in 1

The trinity, they are all the same, but different.

I would go more indepth, but like i said, im very tired, and i have more homework to do.

[F.T. Phantom]

No. That is the concept, not the origin.

Who, when and what were thier influences. Jesus had been dead a century or three before the trininty concept made its appearance.

Now, who came up with the generaly accepted concept of hell in the christain religion. That is a easy one.

[stealthyeliminator]

Who came up with it? Well why don't you tell us your answer FT. You got me curious.

Still working on the Trinity thing. I haven't had too much free time lately.

[Outlaw]

Well, Hell is obviously in the Bible (see: Eternal Damnation, Lake of Fire, Eternal Torment, etc) so it would've been before or at Jesus' time for the concept of Hell to be there.

Ancient Old Testament, maybe?

[stealthyeliminator]

No one really "came up with it"

It's been there since the beginning of time.

You know that place that satan went to(or is going to go to)?

Yeah, that place.

[F.T. Phantom]

Hell, as we think of it, didn't exist in the Christian church until Dante and his inferno. Hell as we look at it was a vision of the orient. Dante was a opium addict. The opium dens of Europe were run/associated with asians. Dante heard the Asians speak of their version of hell, went on a trip and was inspired to write the Devine Comedy which contained the Inferno. Not to mention the plague was running rampant through Europe and they finaly figured out they needed to burn the dead and their belongings keep it from spreading. Seeing all those corpses being tossed into the fires would leave a impression on anyone.

Dante + opium + asians + plague = our perception of hell. Before that, there was only vague refferences to the bad place. No real definition.

[stealthyeliminator]

I'll give you a very simplistic definition... Total seperation from God. That's hell.

[F.T. Phantom]

What is hell? Define it with specifics.

If you wanted total seperation, wouldn't that be heaven.

[Outlaw]

Heaven wouldn't be total separation. That would be Hell.

[F.T. Phantom]

You are looking at it from a very narrow perspective. You assume everyone thinks the way you do. Not even all members of the same religion,church or even family see the vagueries of religion the same way let alone people of different ethnic and regions ofthe world.

[Outlaw]

Well from the Christian stance, the whole point is draw closer to God, so it would only be logical.

[pb318]

Hell, as we think of it, didn't exist in the Christian church until Dante and his inferno. Hell as we look at it was a vision of the orient. Dante was a opium addict. The opium dens of Europe were run/associated with asians. Dante heard the Asians speak of their version of hell, went on a trip and was inspired to write the Devine Comedy which contained the Inferno. Not to mention the plague was running rampant through Europe and they finaly figured out they needed to burn the dead and their belongings keep it from spreading. Seeing all those corpses being tossed into the fires would leave a impression on anyone.

Dante + opium + asians + plague = our perception of hell. Before that, there was only vague refferences to the bad place. No real definition.
[/b]


actually, (as with most of this thread) i believe part of this statement is very wrong...

Dante believed that hell was a number of cold circles descending to the lowest part of hell... no doubt Dante was very disturbed, but a burning inferno with people getting pineapples shoved up their a55holes was far from dante's interpretation... Revelation is where the "commonly accepted" term of hell comes from.

i believe ive done my research on this one, being as i did a 3 page term paper on the book... then again, my notes may have been a bit wrong in places

[Outlaw]

Where did the pineapples come from?

[Spyder Java]

Pineapples - Little Nicky.... it was Hitler's punishment (he was wearing a maid outfit).

[F.T. Phantom]

Wrong? How can anyones opinion of a man created image be wrong?

Look beyond your narrow perspectives. See our modern version of Christs philosophy for what it is. It is 2000 years of mans tinkering and bending it for his own uses.

Dante got the ball rolling and rest was taken care of by creative church leaders.

[pb318]

Wrong? How can anyones opinion of a man created image be wrong?

Look beyond your narrow perspectives. See our modern version of Christs philosophy for what it is. It is 2000 years of mans tinkering and bending it for his own uses.

Dante got the ball rolling and rest was taken care of by creative church leaders.
[/b]

i dont get it? :huh:

[F.T. Phantom]

What part is confusing you? There are a few different areas being covered in that one.

[stealthyeliminator]

Your assuming it's possible for someone to truely desire total seperation from God, in the context of "their eyes being opened."

Someone who "doesn't even believe in God" obviously might not feel, or admit the feeling of desire for a relationship with God or a desire to feel to presence of God, but once Jesus comes back I doubt there will be any denial of His existence, and in that context could there really be any desire to be away from Him? Think about it.

I've been pretty busy lately. I still don't have anything on the whole Trinity thing. I've really just been slacking and putting it off.. Sorry. I always forget until I stumble back on this thread and it reminds me. I'll try to remember to ask my Pastor about it this Wednesday, he should be able to get me started on some research or something, or at least give me some passages to think about.

[F.T. Phantom]

Your still assuming the version of God you have been given is the "right" version. There are many Gosd fearing people you would think of as heathen.

God is not supposed to be coming back. God never died, rose and left.

If your pastor knows the real origins of the Trinity concept, I will be impressed. They may realy be worthy of being called teacher.